Comments on: The case against passion http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/ Random tangents Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:04:48 +0000 hourly 1 By: KT http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-482 Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:04:48 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-482 This post expressed what I’ve been thinking ever since I started my career and started reading Joel Splosky (which happened about the same time). In my collegiate studies I knew that participating in two club sports and being an English writing major as well as a computer science major made me a better programmer. It’s why a liberal arts education used to be the only kind of bachelor education offered. In my career today I know that spending time reading widely, discussing a variety of issues tenaciously, and taking time to relax while problems whiz around in the back of my mind helps me work efficiently in the time that I give to my job (so that instead of being half-brain dead working 70 hours a week I can put in an average work week and get my tasks completed on time).

The many commenters pointing out that passion and professionalism can co-exist may be right. However they aren’t answering the objection that a variety of passions co-existing side-by-side (say for writing poetry as well as programming) can actually help someone’s professional life.

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By: Kevin http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-481 Mon, 01 Mar 2010 06:25:34 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-481 Programmers have to be professional when they are working in a 9 to 5 job whether they are passionate or not. What separates the passionate programmer from the professional only programmer is that the passionate programmer does not restrict himself to just the 9 to 5 job. He will be working on improving his skills even after his office job. And the reason he can do this is because he is passionate about programming.

Talking about all those famous programmers like Bill Gates, Tim Berners-Lee, Steve Wozniak, etc, all were able to achieve success firstly because they are passionate programmers. There must have been times when they would have focussed sorely on programming for hours on end when it was needed to solve a particular programming problem. And you tend to spend hours on something only when you are passionate about it. Maybe being passionate tends to being addicted because only when you are addicted to something can you achieve mastery in that.

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By: Senthil Kumar http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-480 Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:08:16 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-480 Well said ,

After this post , i think i need to modify one of my blog post that wrote about “what it takes to be a good programmer”

Thanks

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By: Greg (Commentor NemesisVex on Soon Hui's blog) http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-479 Mon, 01 Mar 2010 02:17:38 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-479 I think the appropriate word here is gumption. Passion and professionalism may come into it, but really, both Soon and Mark are talking about having initiative and perhaps resourcefulnes. It’s the degree of having that gumption which seems to be the debate.

The impression I get from Soon’s post is that anything less than total dedication is insufficient for a sustained career. I don’t believe that. You can have a measured sense of gumption which produces no less effectively than someone with an excess amount. I care for what I do, but I don’t feel the need to be a gold medalist or the Tiger Woods of X. (Or the Tiger Woods of anything, given his current situation.)

At the same time, if I end up putting in my 10,000 hours and becoming a master of what I do, all the better.

Lacking that gumption is what would get a person into trouble.

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By: ram http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-477 Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:47:39 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-477 passion is a motivator (aka trigger) — process combines passion & talent effectively & efficiently into results — without passion a process is an efficient algorithm with no inputs — passion does not equate to talent either — process cannot help if there is no talent — talent needs to be there either explicit or implicit (an ability to gain it) — process is like a great sportscar — a love of driving (passion) & a great machine (process) will not help win a race, if the driver is unable to master skills (talent) — need all 3 — process can accomodate lack of talent to a degree by providing a formal environment or lack of passion by providing opps to grow that passion thru improvement, but still depends on both

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By: Niilo Tippler http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-476 Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:51:53 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-476 Passion doesn’t make a a great programmer, nor a professional one. Passion is what drives us to strive to be great. You might have a natural talent, or be a prodigy like Mozart, but if you don’t have the passion for what you do then you will likely still be great at it, but it won’t mean much to you inside. And I think that’s where the line between passion and skill/talent get blurred. Many people believe that anyone with massive talent *must* love what they do, and thus be passionate about it, but that’s not always the case.

I love what I do, I’m passionate about computers and programming, and my love and interest in electronics directed me towards computers and I remember the first time I switched on my first computer, a Sinclair ZX-81, and typed in the lines of my first program, I knew this was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life as a career. I’m passionate about what I do, but I don’t always love it and sometimes wish I was doing something else, but that passion drives me continually to learn more, learn new skills, and always do the very best job I can, every time, even though I might not love the particular project I’m working on, I can’t do a second-rate job – the passion I have and the love for my work means that not striving to do my best is failing at my own values.

But, in the same way that the skill doesn’t necessarily equate to passion, the existence of the passion doesn’t automatically imply the skills are there to satisfy it. And that’s where the drive for learning and improving yourself come in, and where the passion really helps. If you desperately want to learn how to do something because you have the passion driving you then you will learn it, and you continue to learn more and more new things which in turn feed your passion and drive to better yourself and do a good job – no, a great job!

I have a passion for computers and programming, but I know I don’t always have the skills to do the job, so I’m driven not only by a requirement to learn but the passion to learn, and I get just as much satisfaction for myself just out of learning how to do something as I do in actually putting that knowledge into practice.

Passion is not the be all and end all, but it cannot be discarded as unimportant. It *is* a factor in why some people are better at some things than others. Skill, ability and talent combine to make someone extremely adept at a particular task, but throw passion into the mix and you give that person drive, a turbo-boost in essence, to take that skill and turn it into Jedi Mastery.

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By: toyappmaker http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-475 Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:36:47 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-475 I don’t think one rules out the other, i consider myself passionate about being professional. Because much like a gold medalist i strife to be everything i can be and take great pride in my work. I am a craftsman. To me passion does not equal constantly chasing the latest fads.

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By: Dave http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-474 Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:46:44 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-474 > So you’re left with a continual process of dispassionate self-improvement for the sake of self-improvement, consistently carried out throughout your career.

But that’s not at odds with being passionate about programming–not at all.

I’d also disagree that passion is necessarily fleeting.

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By: Peter Lindqvist http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-473 Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:14:40 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-473 Even though I take almost no interest in the definitions of professionalism or passion, I do like the way the discussion is taking place.

My personal opinion is that both passion and professionalism is required to be a really good programmer. But of course priorities change throughout life and sometimes other things tend to get more attention.

I also appreciate the point about education. My personal take on this have been to start working without going to university. But taking courses on the side. Having worked 10 years as a programmer makes it really easy to take these courses and helps me solidify my practical experience into lasting knowledge. It also helps me in regards of critically evaluating my performance and knowing my weak spots. In turn helping me develop those points and further evolve in my professional field.

Working full time and at the same time educating myself within the same field would not have been possible without some degree of passion I think.

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By: Carsten http://178.63.27.54:8080/statictangents/2008/03/31/the-case-against-passion/comment-page-1/#comment-472 Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:15:11 +0000 http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/?p=42#comment-472 This post is exactly how I think about my professional life as a software developer. Of course, I like to work in this field. Of couse, I like to solve problems. And of course, I like to create something that is useful to others. Maybe I’m too much of an engineer to be a creative, rockstar-like programmer that everyone is talking about, but for me it is the level of professional workmanship that is the major point of “being good” at something.

I agree with the 10k hours that you need to really be good at something. It’s the same with playing the piano or any other instrument. If you work on it, you’ll get good. Maybe you’re not the next Mozart, but not everyone needs to be on the top. That’s why I don’t like the sports examples: you’re always talking about the gold medal winners. 😉 We won’t have cars, won’t have great buildings and won’t have a lot of others great things if there weren’t all the people that care about what they do and that really do a good job without standing out of the crowd. I think that is a much overseen part of professional work.

For me this discussion about passion is on the same level as the discussion about rockstar programmers and the whole “programming is creative work” things. You need the bright heads and the spare moments of genius to build really great things, but after that, you need a lot of dedicated and stubborn people to work on it every day from 9 to 5. 🙂

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